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  2. Episode 8

Official Info Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi & IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by RX_Sith, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. jujukane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2016
    star 1
    First of all, yet you don't know the exact motives of Kylo Ren. It's very possible the writers will surprise us all here. Maybe Rey and the audience will discover that Luke and Kylo are not so much different as they appear to be. At least the teaser poster is somewhat suggesting that.

    Second: Who chooses whether an organization is evil or not? You alone? Well ok, lets go with that. For you the rebels are the good guys and the imperials are the bad guys. But you dont live alone in this galaxy. So lets ask a pilot of the empire. Of course he will state the complete opposite as the truth. He views the rebels as nothing but terrorists who forced the galaxy into a war the most people in the galaxy never wanted to fight.
    Don't you understand? Have you even understood Lost Stars? Or someone like Ransolm Casterfo? I've got the impression you really haven't. Or at least that we both understand it very differently.
    See, I'm on the side of the rebel Alliance too and believe they genuinely wanted to do the right thing but was this "right thing" really so right for every one and every World in the whole galaxy? Definitely not. Apparently many many worlds are fallen into chaos after the empire is gone because of growing crime for example. Apparently many people have wished their empire back, see Bloodline. Are they all evil because they liked the empire? Or has "the empire" also have done good things for this people? And therefore the "rebel alliance" has done bad things to this same people? So who is right now and who is really wrong? I think it really really depends on so much things what people are viewing as good or bad.

    But it's ok for me to agree to disagree here with you.
    Last edited by jujukane, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:15 AM
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  2. Classified8 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2016
    star 1
    There isn't a clear indication of his motives at this point, but I felt after watching TFA that he would not follow a path of becoming eviler and eviler over the course of this trilogy until Rey finally offs him. In my mind, just the fact that he is Han and Leia's son precluded that. I couldn't believe that he would ever be portrayed as a grotesque and cackling Darth Sidious type. In TFA he is shown as somebody struggling to be more like Vader, but failing ("pull to the light", "you're afraid you will never be as strong as Darth Vader", etc.) The TLJ teaser trailer and poster have only reinforced my belief that they are going for something more ambiguous with Kylo. Whether or not they successfully pull that off will, as always, be in the eye of the beholder. But I am interested to find out. When I re-watched A New Hope last summer I was struck by how simplistic the story I had loved as a child now seemed to me. I don't see the world now the way I did then.
  3. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    Exactly, because Kylo Ren was certainly no interested in not harming innocents. On contrary, he ordered an entire village killed for no reason whatsoever.

    Which is the fundamental difference between a hero and a villain.

    Collateral damage is not the basis of morality. Intentions, choices and circumstances are. I mean, technically Vader killed less people in the OT than Luke did, but no one would honestly say that Luke was more evil than Vader, or comparable in terms of morality.

    I also strongly disagree that the new canon is painting a portrayal of Empire = Rebellion in terms of morality. Giving a certain character his or hers POV is not the same as saying whatever embellished picture that character believes in is the new canon rhetoric. The Empire is still very much portrayed as a predatory system that corrupts people and the main source of evil in the galaxy. Even in Rogue One, where you can rightfully argue that there was an intent in portraying the rebels in a more morally ambiguous fashion, the Empire still came across as pure evil. No matter how many informants Cassian killed or how many unfortunate targets the Rebellion bombed, the Empire was still - always - the worst of the two.

    And btw, I am a huge Vader fan and I love Imperials. I’m also looking forward to more Hux and Kylo than the other characters. But I still don't co-sign to this fans’ tendency of trivializing evil just to make their faves look better, or to this wish of some sort of edgelord narrative in movies that are supposed to be family-friendly with a strong and simple moral message. Kylo is an evil, despicable human being. So was Vader. That much was clear in TFA and in the OT. That is not going to change, unless of course, Kylo changes himself and becomes good like Vader did.
    Last edited by La Calavera, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:47 AM
  4. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    I agree. There's also the other aspect of Kylo's failure, even with his apparent strength with the force, to be an unassailable opponent for Rey (this time) as proof of being a weak villain.

    Meanwhile, Director Krennic is hailed as a great villain without being an unassailable badass, like villains are supposed to be, apparently.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Yes, I "understood" Lost Stars. I'm not stupid and my reading comprehension skills are just fine.

    Try not assuming that people who don't consume media the exact same way you do have some sort of intelligence or maturity problem. This is the second time you have done that in the past two days.

    Lost Stars was an enjoyable book with enjoyable characters. You are not in a position to tell people that they read it "wrong" or did not "understand" it because they did not come out of it with the belief that the Empire was not so terrible after all.

    There is really not a "motive" that the writers can assign to Kylo Ren that would make his behavior more acceptable to me other than a Bucky Barnes-style brainwashing, and unless the writers choose to completely destroy Luke's character, there is nothing that they can do to lead me to believe that Kylo and Luke are anything alike.

    Anakin had good intentions. He wanted to save Padme. Does not make his behavior any more acceptable than if his motive had been "Obi-Wan locked me in the fresher as a kid and I'm still pissed so I'm going to kill everyone now."

    As far as who decided the Rebel Alliance is good and who decided the Empire was bad--that would be George Lucas in 1976, and that was something he did not change his mind about.

    I don't care what individual Imperials or Rebels think, or whether they think they are doing the right thing.
  6. hana_solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2016
    star 4
    Speaking of Death Star, it's hilarious that the second Death Star didn't explode right away cause they had to give Luke time to conveniently get off it. Hence evacuation window. We see what you've done here, GL. ;)
    Last edited by hana_solo, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:28 AM
  7. The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2015
    star 4
    The whole point of his character is his ambuigity, him being torn apart between light and darkness, strong in the force & weak in the will, Snoke's brainwashing/influence & the pull to the light...there is no way he's gonna be just plain evil in TLJ, in a simplistic way. That would make him just another SW villain. So obviously, on the contrary, his inner conflict and unsecure/borderline personality will be a major aspect of his part in the movie. That's what makes the most sense storywise. Im sure RJ, after watching TFA, wanted to see whats next for him, where his "torments"/"conflicts" will lead him as character (and as han and leia's son..and luke's nephew!). They have to explore that, what writer wouldnt want to? So if anything, Kylo Ren is gonna be even more conflicted

    Doesnt mean redemption or anything. But it means his path might be complex, ambiguous...temporary alliance, going rogue against both resistance and FO, part-regrets/part-darkness, back to the light for good, back to the light then back to the dark side, deception, evil-but-wants-to-save-his-mother, double personality, romance, killing snoke and becoming the new leader supreme, amoral warrior, unpredictable bat**** crazy, grey warrior of the force, last minute sacrifice, exile, etc etc etc...
    Last edited by The PiedPiper of Alderaan, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:43 AM
  8. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    I'm in favor of him getting redeemed because I like happy endings, but I don't see ambiguity, because to me being conflicted about a bad choice does not change the morality of the choice.
  9. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    "If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise."

    What's so new about these Jedi, exactly? New as in better? Or new as in darker?
  10. jujukane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2016
    star 1
    To be honest I think this is exactly what some of you do with your fave: Luke Skywalker. You trivialize the evil he has done because he had "reasons".
    Kylo Ren also has "reasons". Who decides now whose "reasons" are the better "reasons"? I believe "God", or here in SW "The Force", doesn't really care for any reasons.

    Kylo is not pure evil, there's good in him.
    And Luke is not pure good, there's dark in him.
    And it really is ok that way, that's life, that's human. Really no reason one should commit suicide or go insane. In fact, everybody should finally stop all the killing and everything would be fine.
    But the ST will adress this.
    Last edited by jujukane, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:11 AM
  11. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    Yeah, Luke had reasons to destroy a planet-killer weapon that just blew up an entire planet and was about to blow up the place where he was. Unless you think people who self-defend or commit to protect innocents are evil for fighting back aggression.

    Kylo had no reasons to kill villagers after he had already subdued them. They were not a threat to him. But the writers had him do it anyway, to highlight his evilness.

    And Luke is not my fave. I am just not one to engage in bias “re-interpretation” of character actions or “re-framing” the moral narrative when that is laid out loud and clear in the movies, just because it doesn’t suit your preferences. The one who decides good and evil, or “better” reasons, is the one who creates the universe and assigns hero and villain roles. Kylo, much like Vader, is the villain. Thus the one who represents evil in the story.

    And I’m not saying a character can be more than just pure evil or pure good. We have many examples of that in SW. But that is not the same as saying that these characters are comparable in terms of morality. They are not. Choices matter, actions matter. They are the ones that define morality. Not philosophy, or abstract concepts. Even If Luke is shown to be disappointed with the Jedi ways in the ST, that still does not make him the same character as a guy who kills innocent villagers and loving family members.
  12. jujukane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2016
    star 1
    Like it or not: It really is the exact same end result and I believe this is the only thing that matters: Lots of people are dead in both cases, lots of people are mourning them and the hate and anger grows and grows. It will never stop when one is thinking the way many of you do. History also doesn't care about reasons.

    In fact I believe Lukes best action was being on the second death star and throwing his sword away and refusing to fight any further. This is the way to behave, the way of the Jedi and Luke should have doing so more often before then.
    Last edited by jujukane, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:46 AM
  13. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    I wish I could like this more than once.
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  14. soul8luos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2013
    star 4
    In terms of body count (directly and indirectly), is Kylo the same as Vader?
  15. hana_solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2016
    star 4
    @soul8luos Doubtful. Vader had almost 2 decades on him. :p But anyway, body count means nothing in escapist entertainment. What matters is whether you snuff out a character that people care for or not. Therefore, Han is much bigger deal than younglings, etc because we care about Han and don't about younglings (yes, it's sad but we don't know them, it isn't real life, the same rules of sympathy don't apply). Youngling slaying doesn't stay with the viewer cause they are 5 seconds appearance without any emotional investment for us (save that they are young and cute so we have to feel a little sorry by default) while Han is a tragedy that we will think about because we know him and love him.

    but going purely by numbers, Vader wins.
    Last edited by hana_solo, Apr 21, 2017 at 8:20 AM
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  16. TheBBP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 6

    [IMG]
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  17. hana_solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2016
    star 4
  18. Knessa84 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2014
    star 4
    Lives are an unfortunate casualty of war. But when you kill innocent villagers that are not a threat to you, kill your own employees (you KNOW Kylo has, at some point, killed his subordinates in a fit of rage), kill your own father, kill your fellow students and keep the ashes of your victims, you get into the sadistic side of things. Not sure how you can get into an equal comparison there.

    I feel like people are getting into the embarrassing Sean Spicer argument about who's more evil. You're going to lose.

    If we're going to talk generally about the Resistance v. FO. I think the FO has a general way of handling things that has a more casual way of viewing death or viewing life as disposable. Again, I'm sure they just outright kill people who aren't going along or are annoying, these are people who may work for Snoke, Kylo, whoever - no court of justice. Or they kill as an example. They took children away from their homes and programmed to be part of the FO. Some, like Finn, not even being given a name but a number.

    I think the Resistance tries to do things the right way and prevent the loss of life as much as possible. But are there good people on both sides? Sure. I don't think that necessarily reflects on Kylo though which is what this thread is about. The most innocent person on the FO side does not excuse or represent Kylo in any way shape or form.
    Last edited by Knessa84, Apr 21, 2017 at 8:52 AM
  19. spectator Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2017
    star 1

    Is it just me or does Vader look like he's thrown on a pair of Ray-Bans in this pic?
  20. jujukane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2016
    star 1
    We shall see, we shall see, no?[face_whistling]
  21. Darth Smurf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 4
    New as new. New people. Brand new recruits. I think Snoke does not expect that Shaak Ti, Qui Gon, Ki Adi & co to resurrect
  22. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    So Luke already has more new recruits somewhere waiting to rise? I thought they were destroyed. Use of the definite article implies they already exist. If he was talking about the potential for Luke to recruit more apprentices he should just said new Jedi will rise.
  23. oncafar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    somehow through the magic of the force, if luke decides to get involved again, budding little force users will flock to him mysteriously and he will feel compelled to train them all, and for some reason this scares the crap out of snoke. luke's last jedi were not so scary... kylo ren single-handedly wiped them out. i am really confused about what snoke is so terrified of. i feel like a prophesy has to be involved or some sort of clairvoyance he has??? or perhaps it is his great vulnerability (that we don't know what that is) and how easy it actually would be to destroy him?
  24. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    Since when did we know that Kylo single handedly wiped out the Jedi?
  25. oncafar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    okay, maybe he and the KOR did it. but still they were not so scary and it doesn't change my confusion about what snoke is so afraid of.