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    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

The Future of Star Wars on TV

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by ThatWanFromStewjon, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Before exploring the far future, they should first explore the ancient past.
    DarthRosie likes this.
  2. jamminjedi23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2015
    star 4
    @TaradosGon we'll have to see how well TLJ does at the box office. Won't be surprising at all though if it gets around 700 million or close to it.

    If you want to try to find people who will agree with you that Marvel is a bigger franchise than Star Wars well you are probably going to have to go to a different board to find them.
  3. DanielUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6

    I don't disagree, but I think Disney has little or no interest in the Old Republic

    *heart slowly breaks*
  4. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    You missed the point of my argument then. It was that Marvel can produce so much content like a film (or two or three) every year and get away with it because of a diversity in its shared universe's characters, tones, and stories, whereas Star Wars is more formulaic and that releasing a film every year for potentially 15 years might not work. And that a live action TV show about Sith vs Jedi might overlap too much with films about Jedi vs Dark Siders, etc.

    Not that Marvel is more successful, but that the strategy that works for it, might not be best for Star Wars.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
  5. StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Part of the appeal to Legends continuity was the focus on various eras. Periods that were more distinguished from each other then what Disney is doing. Sure we are getting dark times and OT era content while the ST is coming out, but all of those periods are still closely tied together.

    I remember back in the early 2000's, while we were getting the early days of the PT era, we were also getting ToR era content (KoToR game helping significantly) and continuing to see post-RoTJ works. In fact that ancient era begin before we got the PT in the form of ToTJ comics of the 90's

    If Disney doesn't want to commit to a film set in an era that is distant from the films, they could at least explore those days in other formats.

    For me, Disney would begun to make star wars a bit stale if their continued works after Rebels ends and the ST is finished, is merely focused on post-RoTJ world, with some dark times and OT sprinkled in.

    The PT era, should not be the only period in canon star wars that holds the most differences compared to the OT/ST.
    Darkslayer likes this.
  6. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    I think they are doing it in baby steps.

    The OT is the quintessential Star Wars. ANH kicked off the phenomenon, ESB built upon it, and alot of the aspects of Star Wars that have permeated pop culture, "do or do not," "I am your father," etc came from that film.

    According to the Making of ROTJ book, ROTJ was really the first film where there started to show a divide between older audiences that were put off by some of its childishness, and younger audiences that loved it.

    Then there were the prequels that showed that divide even more, especially with TPM.

    In kicking off the new trilogy, Abrams and Kasdan played it incredibly safe, pulling largely from those original films, mostly ANH, but also ESB and ROTJ to an extent. They hit a lot of the same beats with some twists. They also went forward in time an appropriate amount to capitalize on getting the big three back.

    There's been some talk by Kathleen that the series might switch over completely to spinoffs after episode 9, but then she later said that if the story warrants it, they may continue the Skywalker saga.

    So with the spinoffs, I think they're going in baby steps. Rogue One removed the Jedi completely and centered on an all new main cast and took a risk in doing so. But as for the plot, they played it relatively safe, they kept it in the OT era, brought back Tarkin and Vader, centered around the first Death Star, still very much a Rebel vs Imperial conflict, used stock footage to include Gold Leader and Red Leader, etc.

    Most reviews were positive, though both positive and negative reviews were centered on nostalgia. Either that the film took people back to when they were a kid and pushed all the right nostalgic buttons, or that it was a lazy money grab using nostalgia to sell. But even Kathleen Kennedy, in the Rogue One bonus features, says nostalgia can only go so far.

    The next standalone is a bigger risk. It brings back familiar characters like Han and Lando, but it recasts them. It will show how well an audience buys into a Han Solo not played by Harrison Ford, and I would doubt the story centers on the Rebels and Empire at all.

    The spinoff after that was allegedly a bounty hunter film featuring Boba Fett that was canned after the director attached to direct had bombed with 20th Century Fox's Fantastic Four film. It's unknown what the third spin-off would be at this point, but had they gone through with the original idea of a film centered around a popular character that was also a villain, that too would be a bit more of a risk. It's like making a film about the Punisher, it's something that can easily go wrong, if your leads aren't likable.

    I feel like they are taking slightly greater risks with each spinoff, getting further away from familiar characters and conflicts. If the spinoffs prove to be consistently profitable, then I could see them branching further and further out.

    But if for instance Rogue One was profitable and then the Han Solo movie does significantly worse, then I feel like they'd go back to playing it safe.

    It seems like much of Star Wars past 2020 might hinge on the Han Solo film. If it can prove a hit, then maybe LucasFilm will be more confident in its spinoffs. If it doesn't live up to expectations, then maybe they'll instead seek to continue the Skywalker saga. The bounty hunter movie (or whatever replaces it) won't come out til 2020, so its success or lack thereof probably wouldn't affect plans for 2021.

    Names sell. People got ecstatic to see Carrie, Mark and Harrison again. But 2019 may mark the last time any of them are ever seen in a Star Wars film. With Carrie having passed away, and Harrison's character killed off, that really only leaves Mark anyway. Rogue One had new faces headlining it, which is something Star Wars needs to be able to do going forward, but they kept a very familiar backdrop for the story.

    To do something back in The Old Republic would likely eliminate the familiar setting as well as any familiar faces. I feel like that's a huge risk that they might not want to go all in on until they can see how well these movies are holding up.

    Because in the event that Han Solo is a runaway hit and Episode 9's box office performance isn't what LucasFilm hoped it to be, there's even the slight chance that they would instead focus on a young Han Solo trilogy or tell similar stories and move away from the light side/dark side conflicts for a bit.

    There's the part of me that thinks the Old Republic should be covered in a film. Since it's part of that grand tale of Good vs evil like the saga is. And despite TPM being called "Episode 1" it still feels like an essential part of the Jedi/Sith history was glossed over such that a prequel The Old Republic film(s) would lend itself greatly to the saga.

    But there's also the possibility that after 2020 there will be an explosion of spinoffs. Maybe more young Han Solo, bounty hunters, Ewan McGregor wants to do Obi-Wan, Abrams said he has a backstory for the Knights of Ren that could make a spinoff, etc. And if that's the direction that LucasFilm chooses to go with the films, then I think a miniseries might be suitable for the Sith vs. Jedi tale. Because it could easily be another decade at that rate before they venture out of the Anakin/Luke eras.

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  7. StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Your post does make sense, and I agree that many fans would be turned off by a ToR set story for those reasons.

    Though from my perspective, creating a story that has an all new cast, no Skywalkers or Solo's and co, actually improves the GFFA and its scope.

    It shows that star wars is more then just the tales of the previous film crews. Heroes were saving the day before the Skywalkers emerged. Villains wrecking havoc before the days of Palpatine. Also it makes the star wars world feel larger by focusing on other eras through new eyes.

    The world that the films created could still be explored alongside a "new" world of the ToR era.

    Hopefully Disney would eventually take advantage of Star Wars' vast history.
  8. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    I've been hoping for a KOTOR cartoon, miniseries, or film for a long time.

    When Rebels was announced, I was disappointed that they were moving back to the Rebel vs. Imperial conflict again, rather than moving somewhere new. I was at least on board with the idea that there couldn't be any Jedi, and so it would be interesting. But then we got introduced to Jedi and the Inquisitors.

    I wouldn't care if they went forward or backward in time, I just wanted a new conflict. I grew up watching the OT on VHS, then Lucas went back and did the PT and TCW and stayed in that era for over a decade. Then Disney bought LucasFilm, cancelled TCW, announced new films moving forward in the timeline, but then mixed them in with more PT-OT films.

    For now, I am very much looking forward to TLJ and Episode IX, as the First Order, Snoke, why Luke is in exile, Rey's parents, etc all forward a new story. After that I hope they either go even further into the future and/or go back pre-PT.

    Rebels is a funny thing because at one point, Dave was talking about how he could keep it going as long as people kept watching it. And so there's that part of me that wished it wouldn't get renewed so that they could make something else, but realistically, I don't think companies operate like that. If Rebels flopped, they probably wouldn't be eager to release another animated series.

    So on one hand, I have to wish it success because without it, Star Wars might not have a bright future on TV. But at the same time, success at one point meant that something I wasn't interested in could go on indefinitely. So I was glad to hear Season 4 will be the last, and that it can end on its own terms. But I'm looking forward to where they will go next.

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  9. jabberwalkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2014
    star 4
    Well yeah, look how long it has been since we've had a Star Trek series on TV. Voyager from what I gather is generally not regarded highly, you either love it or hate it, and then there's Enterprise which can be almost as divisive.

    If Rebels had been cancelled and didn't end on its own terms, I can't see that we would necessarily get another Star Wars show quickly.
    Octavian Dibar and TaradosGon like this.
  10. jamminjedi23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2015
    star 4
    @TaradosGon if Star Wars wanted to it could release two or more films a year and most (if not all) would be more profitable than what is going on with Marvel right now. You are jumping the gun a bit by saying Star Wars wouldn't be as successful as Marvel using their forumla (especially considering Star Wars has been around for forty years and is more popular now than ever).

    No offense but you have already shown that you don't really know how the box office works and with you seemingly also wanting to pump up the Marvel films I think I am just going to disregard your opinions from now on.

    Good luck though with your debates.
    Last edited by jamminjedi23, Apr 20, 2017
  11. Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2015
    star 3


    I think you're mostly on point. It's not too expensive if it makes a profit. The question is 1) can you run a show on a budget that will get the ratings (and still be profitable), and 2) Is someone willing to take the risk and bankroll it?

    Alternatively, it may be that the show itself can be run, even if it's not profitable itself, so long as you can identify (enough) fiscal benefits from other sources, e.g., action figures, sickly cute plush dolls, etc.
    TaradosGon likes this.
  12. MrDarth0 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2015
    star 1

    These days, CGI sets are actually way cheaper than physical sets.

    One of the main reasons why George used blue screen so much in the PT. Also most of the sets in Rogue One are digital as well to large extend.
  13. Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2015
    star 3

    Pretty much. I remember when some were demanding the show be cancelled by the time the first three or four episodes came out. They just didn't get the fact that if that show got cancelled, it would make very important people very nervous about funding another Star Wars TV venture.

    Oh, also. Voyager doesn't exist. I don't know what TV show you're talking about.
    TaradosGon likes this.
  14. jabberwalkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2014
    star 4
    Something to think about, is that some Syfy shows and Canadian shows are co-produced so the cost is somewhat split between them (not to mention that there are usually some other entities involved as well). I'm pretty sure that Continuum was like that, and I want to say that Killjoys and Dark Matter are something like that as well. But yeah, you may be able to run the show for a finite amount of time, but diminishing returns are well... diminishing. ;)

    Of course, producing a show that can be sold and broadcast to another market is also an option. In a way, I guess you could cite BSG in this category since from what I remember it was originally a Universal venture, and SciFi (now known as Syfy for those unfamiliar) ordered more seasons after the first. And it originally aired in the UK first on one of the Sky channels.

    Oh I remember those calls for cancellation after the initial movie, and the subsequent episodes, very clearly. It wasn't until about the mid point of the first season that people changed their tune and thought that there might be something in this show that's entertaining. People's expectations based on ye olde EU (now Legends) certainly didn't help matters.

    And yeah, I try to erase it from my memory as well. Awful show was awful... I actually enjoyed Enterprise more, especially the last two seasons.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    I don't know how Rebels is doing, presumably fine. But then again such financial information is not usually accessible to my knowledge.

    I know Pablo was candid on Twitter about TCW at one point, saying that his estimate was about $2,000,000 per hour of footage, and that merchandise wasn't selling. Sounded like George was making up the difference out of pocket.

    I don't know if Rebels merchandise is selling any better, or if the production cost was just slashed until the show could keep itself afloat.

    I've read (don't know how true it is) that a lot of these big blockbuster franchise movies make deceptively little after advertising is factored in and that they rely heavily on merchandising, an example said that Warner Bros actually reported a loss on Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. I don't know if that holds true for TV too, but Pablo made it sound like merchandising sales were a factor that killed TCW.

    I can say that when I was still working retail and Rebels toys hit the shelves they were not selling well at all. Then again online shopping is a thing now, so that may not be indicative of anything. Our little hand scanners could track sales back like 6 weeks on a scanned item, and being the curious Star Wars nerd, I'd periodically scan them. Star Wars in general wasn't selling well outside of Legos.

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    Octavian Dibar likes this.
  16. Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2015
    star 3

    Well, online sales probably contributed. But it also didn't help that Rebels was buried behind DisneyXD and not a more accessible channel. That was always one of my biggest criticisms of the show. To sell the merch, people have to know about the show. I had friends (super SW fans) start asking me about the show only after the second season was going. Whatever SW show they do next, it can't be buried behind premium cable or some other paywall.

    TCW will eventually make money. They just need to merchandise the heck out of those Ahsoka doodlebopper hats.:D

    Edit: @jabberwalkie Yeah, Enterprise started hitting a strong stride in season 3. Shame it only got one more season.
    Last edited by Octavian Dibar, Apr 20, 2017
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  17. jabberwalkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2014
    star 4
    @Octavian Dibar

    Yeah, the ground work had finally been laid and they got to the point where they could tell longer story arcs (which I'm a fan of). Apparently if they had gone another season we would have gotten more Vulcan transformation and the Earth Romulan War. I read the relaunch novels for ENT, it's a crying shame the show got axed when it did. It honestly would have had the potential to be as strong as DS9 was during the Dominion War.
  18. StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Maybe Star Trek should return to animation. A show that is a sequel to Enterprise showing the earth - romulan war. Actors from enterprise could show up through voice acting. A better idea then Star Trek Discovery. Not a huge trek fan, havnt watched a whole lot, but even I understand that the 22nd century was cut short and should make a come back. Star Trek Beyond, is an influence to why I want to see the war on screen.
  19. Twain Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2014
    star 2
    Star Trek should definitely go to animation because Trek could do so much more through animation -- but not as a prequel narrative. There's way too many canonical handcuffs for prequel Trek already. Trek needs animation to go forward into the post-TNG era. Use a family-friendly CBS affiliate and market the damn thing.


    Oddly, Star Wars TV needs the exact opposite -- a live-action mini-series format that explores the past. Live-action Star Wars TV should use short seasons of vignettes that explore the Old Republic and the Dark Times eras. Use an adult-centric Disney affiliate and cash checks.
    Last edited by Twain, Apr 20, 2017
  20. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 7
    You think it will make less then Rogue One? That would be unlikely IMAO
  21. DanielUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6

    Like TCW, it was doing okay*. But, Star Wars animation tends to appeal to the hardcore fans and not the casual audience - which is where the franchise makes the most money. Like every other form of entertainment.

    It's why a live-action series has always been met with lukewarm appeal; very expensive to run, with no guarantee financial success in the long run.

    *I do recall rumours, during season two, the show wasn't doing particularly well and Disney were having doubts. But it was just rumours.
  22. jamminjedi23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2015
    star 4

    I was referring to 700 million domestic.

    @DanielUK a lot of those rumors were likely just started because people saw the ratings weren't as good as they were for TCW. However Rebels has always been one of XD's highest rated programs.
    Last edited by jamminjedi23, Apr 21, 2017
  23. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    What I find humorous is the statistic given here

    http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/ratings-disney-xd-star-wars-rebels-finale-1201757980/amp/

    If that's accurate, then more adults were watching season 2 of Rebels than kids 6-11 "for at least six minutes."

    I'm reminded of the memes that show the target audience vs. real audience of different properties, like My Little Pony having a target audience of girls and a real audience of adult men. Obviously that's exaggerated for comedic effect, but if adults were really such a big component of viewership, than I would think the show would have pulled a much bigger audience on a different channel.

    I never heard of XD until Rebels. I probably would never have even heard of Rebels if not for the online community.

    If they put a future show on a more recognizable channel, I would wonder how many more viewers it would get.

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    jabberwalkie likes this.
  24. jabberwalkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2014
    star 4
    This is correct. Lots of stuff was said during season one about how the show wasn't doing as well as TCW, which completely ignores that the show was one of XD's stronger shows, and stronger consistently. Between Rebels and Gravity Falls, those were two of XD's strongest performers over the last few years.


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  25. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    TCW may or may not have had a much bigger audience, and I would be inclined to think it was larger just because even TCW characters started being folded into Rebels, which I think assumes that they are trying to draw back fans of the other show.

    But TCW was also much more expensive, and Pablo at one point said that it wasn't able to hold onto its target age group (it was on Twitter awhile back, I don't know how to dig up old tweets I didn't participate in).

    That coupled with the lack of merchandise sales makes me think that it did have an audience, just one older than intended that wasn't as eager to buy toys.

    The show was better, IMO. It did get alot of recognition. And it very well may have had a bigger audience. But if that audience wasn't kids, and merchandise wasn't selling, it could still come up short of offsetting its massive budget.

    I think they really should embrace the fact that while George claims SW was made for 12 year olds, that his core demographic might be much older.

    EDIT: This was not the tweet to which I was referring, but apparently he did express the sentiment more than once

    https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/797486561499627520

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