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Discussion The Official "List Your Complaints About TFA" Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by BretHart, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. Jedi Jessy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2016
    star 4

    Yes Han made Jabba to wait 3 years and Solo wasn't smuggling like in ANH (so no more future business between them), then Han being killed was likely
  2. fastcooljosh Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2017
    star 1
    I love how everybody is complaining that Anakins turn was so sudden (even tho his "turn" started already in Episode 2), but Finn a stormtrooper who was raised by the empire/firstorder, becomes suddenly a good guy in less than 5 minues screentime.
    Difference is this time people dont care.
    Last edited by fastcooljosh, May 16, 2017
  3. redxavier Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly. But the film doesn't play it that way. Which is why I believe Han is clearly leaving for good. Thus the notion that Han was fully transformed by ANH isn't accurate. The finality is there from the beginning with his conversation with Riekan.

    General, I've got to leave. I can't stay anymore.
    I'm sorry to hear that.
    Well, there's a price on my head. If I don't pay off Jabba the Hut, I'm a dead man.
    A death mark's not an easy thing to live with. You're a good fighter, Solo. I hate to lose you.
    Thank you, General.

    Well, Your Highness, I guess this is it.
    That's right.
    Well, don't get all mushy on me. So long, Princess.

    I thought you decided to stay.
    Well, the bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell changed my mind.

    There's no implication in either of these bits that after paying off Jabba, he's coming back. These are good byes, not 'see you later'. Further, I don't think there's an underlying concern that that he's going off to possibly get killed.

    Well your Worship, looks like you managed to keep me around for a little while longer.

    What I meant by the secrecy is just me throwing out the idea that if Han left them on Hoth, he might not ever be able to join up with them again, assuming they left the base, because he wouldn't be able to physically find them or wouldn't have the means to. How would he contact them to ask about their secret base? Luke seems far more taken with the cause and knows about rendezvous points. But Han is another story I feel.
  4. tryintobegreat Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2017
  5. Hernalt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    I cannot overturn your interpretation of ESB. Cutting much short, ROTJ up until the point I argued previously presents a transactional Han. Within Jabba's sphere of influence, he "regresses" (he's only been out of ice for 60 seconds) to bargaining and writing checks he himself probably would not be able to cash. He hides his involvement in the Rebellion as a "distraction". Leia says nothing about the Rebellion but says they have "powerful friends". Luke reveals himself as a Jedi Knight and it's only because of long distance rates on this planet furthest from that Jabba doesn't have the Empire on speed dial. Even if the Rebellion vetted this mission of Leia's and Luke's hatching, to recover a decorated hero of the first death star, Han Solo's perspective of events is that his friends, and his lover, came for him. Not the cause.

    There is a scene in the ROTJ script that was shot but not included. I am adding preceding lines for context.
    The complexion of this sequence is that Solo can have chosen his dangerous mission out of a debt to a friend, and not loyalty to a cause.

    Still. His stunt of not telling Leia, his lover, he was about to go into the greatest possible danger ought to count for more than merely impressing that lover. It is possible that he was mentally, emotionally, spiritually engaged -preoccupied- by the cause, itself. This preoccupation, while possibly staged and performative, may have been genuine. In the Ewok village he certainly has reversed the vector of greatest interest (who was more willing to lose sight of who). He says he will keep his distance If Luke is Leia's interest. If you love them let them go. He cannot have arrived at this position of elevated context without internalizing some of what (cause) Leia embodies.
  6. moreorless12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2016
    star 4
    You could argue that Finns shift is somewhat less important to the story, granted he is the co lead but Anakin's fall is the main story of the entire PT.

    I do tend to think style and expectation plays a big factor in reaction personally. Seems to me that if you go down the typical action/meta humour rollercoster audiences will forgive a lot more than if you attempt to play things straighter. Equally I think by the time of ROTS a lot of viewers had quiet negatve expectations of the film where as TFA was viewed as a glorious return of SW.

    Again for me TFA ended up being VERY similar to Abrams Trek in so many ways, in style and nostalgic focus playing to an audience who were ready for someone "fun". Like that film though I suspect the attachment won't last.
    Last edited by moreorless12, May 19, 2017
  7. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    They were both sudden turns but Anakin had a huge legacy to live up to (being young Vader) while Finn is just a new character that you just accept him as he is, and if you don’t like it, it’s not a big deal.

    Also, TFA didn’t play Finn's turn to the good side as a huge dramatic plot point like ROTS did with Anakin.
  8. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 4
    The entire saga and it still is. Finn is next to irrelevant.

    As ever I have no idea what is sudden about Anakin's turn since it started when he was 9 and built over 13 years and 2 and a half movies but that is another thread.

    Finn's turn isn't even a turn as such. I don't know what it was supposed to be. A turn would indicate that he was a loyal Stormtrooper and then he changed his mind. We simply don't know what happened. There is no real set up or indication in the movie. Judging by the way he destroys fellow troops he was never loyal but then also never was thought of as disloyal.

    Writing wise they simply look as though the idea of having a Stormtrooper change sides was cool but then didn't want to have him actually be one as a character or personality but simply just a guy. Which could work with little difficulty if he had been recruited recently. Then it all works quite easily except they went with the Clone type training as seen in AOTC.
    B3, Dave Hoffman and CT-867-5309 like this.
  9. christophero30 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2017
    star 2


    I loved TFA. My only complaints were the Starkiller base X-Wing scenes as they were too much like the Death Star attacks and the Rathtar scene, which was bizarre. Other than that, no complaints. :)
  10. miasma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2013
    star 3
    My biggest complaint was the reveal that Han was Luke's father ("Luke's a Jedi, you're his father.") I mean, doesn't that make Leia his daughter, which, in turn, makes their relationship a bit icky.
    MeBeJedi, 11-4D, B3 and 2 others like this.
  11. moreorless12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2016
    star 4
    Yeah I tend to agree, the problem is they want both the interesting plot of having a stormtrooper switch sides AND the easier conventional character arc of a comedy sidekick finding his courage when really they don't match up well.

    You don't necessarily need to show Finn working as an ST for along time to give the shift weight but I do think you need to do it in stages to give the character an arc across the film. Say for example show that Finn isn't willing to kill the villagers(or something similar) but then rather than having him defect have him marooned on Jakku somehow(which is actually the plot I thought we'd get) so his relationship to the FO isn't totally settled at the point he meets Rey, I think its easy to see a lot of strong drama built from that where as the Finn we do get in TFA is very shallow for me.
  12. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    I had to think about that one for a moment ;)
    MeBeJedi likes this.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7

    It would have been easier to have Finn remain with the FO and then Poe takes him against his will onto the fighter in order to access the controls, etc. Then Finn slowly comes around to seeing that he was serving the wrong side as he sees things from the perspective of the Resistance. I also wouldn't have him obviously bug out right away on Jakku. But I also would have him hesitate at gunning civilians down. He can't bring himself to do it after all.
    Phasma intends on reporting him for insubordination again and this time could mean expulsion or worse.
    Then Poe takes him against his will by a gun in the back. Finn also doesn't gun down other FO men. His switch should come later and after some character growth.
    Last edited by ShaneP, May 20, 2017
    La Calavera likes this.
  14. Ando123 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2017
    1- The movie felt very fast paced. Although this is a problem I see in almost all popular movies of nowdays, or, to be more exact from the last 10 or 15 years approximately.

    2- They abused the suspense of the plot and main characters. We have no idea who the main character is and we all feel we need an explanation that involves prior facts. We have no idea why the enemies are enemies (except for the First Order but it's still kinda vage). Of course odds are they will explain these things in EP 8 and 9 but this isn't an excuse to make EP 7 almost hollow by its own. Maybe it has a lot of deep meanings, but it still a very "only action" movie by its own.

    3- I didn't like the copy paste to EP4. I still enjoyed EP7 more than EP1 but when they talked about making this new trilogy more similar to the old one, I think they took it almost literal. If EP8 is a copypaste of EP5 my conclussion will be that this new trilogy is a big failure, worse than the prequels.

    I think that's all.

    I enjoyed the movie a lot the first time I watched it, but as time passes, I only like it less and less, meaning it was almost nothing but hype, at least in my case.
    Last edited by Ando123, May 20, 2017
  15. Hernalt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    The Disney CIWS maintain that TFA is as fast paced as SW77, which is as fast paced as TFA, and none should distinguish between the pacing. Which is a correct point from a bird's eye low resolution. What is not addressed is that the information density, particularly through Harrison Ford's rapid fire expository, world-building deliveries, are doubly, triply, higher than nearly everything in TFA. All the SW77 hero principals had tongue twisters. The dialogue in TFA does move at a clip, in isolated scenes, and does deliver information rapidly, sometimes. The going rate assessment during the filming of SW77 was that 'Lucas, you can write this **** but you can't say it.' And Lucas would hold a line, see the whites of those eyes, and ratchet the deliveries with 'faster, more intense'. The linguistic stunts he performed with the actor's mouths were to the overall benefit of the entirety, pulling the whole thing taut. The stunt Abrams performed with Rey and Finn's talking over each other was a neat trick, and helped to pull nothing to anything else.
    Last edited by Hernalt, May 20, 2017
  16. Ando123 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2017
    Sorry I have no idea what this is
  17. Hernalt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    The film that was released on May 25, 1977 and won 6 Oscars. Peculiarly crucial to its longevity was the tautness marked by Best Editing, to Marcia Lucas, Paul Hirsch, Richard Chew. Marcia Lucas is the one who closed the deal with the final battle.

    So. Dialogue that is impossible and immersing. Editing that is within one g of whiplash. A mere two components out of many that allowed lightning to strike out of a clear blue sky.
  18. moreorless12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2016
    star 4
    What that does highlight of course is that cinema is very much of its time, I would argue that by modern standards the original film is actually quite languid in its pace and indeed the dialog seems reasonably naturalistic.

    After the opening few minutes we get an hour mostly devoted to location and character afterall and its only in the cell block that we see a return to greater action. In comparison I think TFA is a vastly faster paced film that trys to juggle a lot more plot wise.
  19. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6

    Agreed...ANH is definitely a slow film between the droids landing on Tattooine and Luke going to Mos Eisley, with a few exceptions. The intervening scenes aren't bad, per se, and do provide important information, but there's more of a "real-time" sense of pacing. Lucas stated in the Annotated Screenplays that this was a case of each character leading us to the next (Droids to Luke to Ben to Han).
  20. Hernalt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    The art in motion from nearsighted scrap pile to docking bay 94, at 00:53:36 / 02:01:46 is naturalistic. It is a showroom where the sales force permits the potential customer to covet and savor the day in the life quotidian, ordinary exotica of the realistically worn alien universe. The viewer is invested. The high pressure starts with "Blast em". I have seen more than my fill of Jurassic Park, Marvel Universe, Star Trek, and AbramsTrek fare, the closest living relatives to Star Wars in terms of impossibles delivered. Perhaps someone can provide an instance where a delivery from any of those matches the words-per-minute of several examples from the three hero principals of SW77 that occur after 00:53:36. The former is indelible and inviting, the latter is indelible and coercive.

    I don't have time stamps for TFA. Abrams' invitation segment lasts 40 minutes? 30? From that point on, the information delivery or world building per minute is lower than in the latter half of SW77. By building I mean not borrowing. I mean on a foundation that Abrams himself went out and laid with shovel, rake, level and float. Abrams demonstrated he could make the actors do tongue twisters but he did not leverage this in any way to paint the world at a resolution comparable to that world painted in SW77. There ought to have been fast talking expository intensifiers that gesture or genuflect towards why this or that. How did the Republic fall so fast - give someone a long, fast line. Deal with it head on, on film, within sight of all spectators. I give credit to Abrams for Solo's (dialogue) moof milker and King Prana. These high resolution (dialogue) brush strokes can be stacked against those in SW77 and will come up short. The end product is that the SW77 world was built more rapidly, largely through dialogue, that had bursts of high frequency data, than was the world of TFA, which is more geographically sprawling but thin as a reflecting mirror in most spots. Jakku was given the most depth, for still being a mirror.

    So a metric would be, How much genuine world was delivered per unit time, ignoring individual durations of invitation period and hard sale? The eye is not fooled that Abrams' world is a reflection of SW77. The ear can be persuaded by clever use of additional dialogue. Abrams did not leverage his actors' abilities to do what Lucas leveraged his actors to do.

    If juggling means complexity aside from the avatar, then I would say, Ren and Finn require juggling. I don't want to add Han to that, but I have already confessed that Abrams was within the mandate laid down by Lucas in 1983 that Solo may have downs for every up. So. Han requires juggling. Early Bird Special stand-up cardboard cutouts for other characters that shall be given dimension in VIII don't require juggling. I omit a long paragraph and will just admit that I cannot refute that Leia was handled with enough subtlety to require juggling.
  21. 11-4D Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2015
    star 4
    I'm trying to wrap my head around Poe surviving the TIE crash and it doesn't make perfect sense. He said he woke up at night and the ship was gone, so I assumed that he woke up the night after the ship was swallowed by the desert. Obviously doesn't work because he arrives at Takodana with the Resistance that same day. So he must have woken up the night before Finn did. He didn't see the burning wreckage? And why did he hitchhike back to the Resistance base instead of looking for BB-8, the sole reason he went back to Jakku for???
  22. cerealbox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2016
    star 5
    It's explained in the movie novelization, Poe Dameron Flight Log book, and in the Lego game what happened to Poe.

    Basically he had a concussion and wandered from the crash before Finn got to it. Then it goes on to explain how he helped someone and managed to radio the Resistance.
    Last edited by cerealbox, May 21, 2017
  23. Jedi Jessy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2016
    star 4


    It's because Poe was originally going to die but JJ changed his mind
    http://www.slashfilm.com/the-force-awakens-death/
  24. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 7
    That's correct, and unfortunately they didn't really go back to resolve those outstanding questions that are left hanging by that change. I like Poe and was happy to have him survive the movie, but those points are kind of annoying in that they are just kind of there... especially the "leaving Jakku without BB-8" one.
    ShaneP, Jedi Jessy and 11-4D like this.
  25. 11-4D Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2015
    star 4
    Jedi Jessy likes this.