Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by MilakeRaznus, May 6, 2016.

  1. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, that is untrue. The Force, which has been described as the combined vibrations of living things, contains both light and dark sides in its natural state ( according to Lucas, if it is not sufficiently self-evident that the aggregate energies of life forms would never be exclusively positive ). The balance is between the light and dark sides according to the OS. As such, neither one "is" balance; each balances the other. When the Force is out of balance it does not mean that the Force is out of light.

    "A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night." Here we have a manifestation of this in the day-night cycle on Mortis. Balance involves the presence of both polarities as opposed to being represented by only one ( all of one and none of the other is totally unbalanced ). Rebels presents essentially the same concept via the Bendu.
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  2. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I disagree.

    Also, Mortis talked about how the Son was "falling to the dark side." He represented natural darkness on that planet, not dark side of the Force.

    And Bendu, I think, was shown to be a terrible person and not worth following.

    This isn't a conversation I'm interested in having again about Mortis/Bendu.
    Last edited by Ghost, Apr 15, 2017
  3. Jolee Bindo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2016
    star 1

    This is how I see it (assuming I am representing your views correctly). It's not a balance between good and evil, or even some more abstract idea of "dark" and "light". The Dark Side is a sickness in the Force that unbalances it, and so must be destroyed. This to me seems to be the most consistent reading of the "balance" idea and also the most morally palatable.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Except that Lucas states that it is the balance between the light and the dark that is being disrupted and needs to be restored.

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine Article 2002.


    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.


    You are free to disagree, but let's have a bit of clarity.
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  5. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    Lucas also said the dark side is like a cancer, which comes from the body being out of balance.
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  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    He said the Sith were. Not everything to do with the Dark Side is tied to the Sith.
  7. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    The Sith are Force-users who embrace using the dark side.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    So did Snoke, the Inquisitors and the Nightsisters/brothers of Dathomir. The Sith were the worst of the worst because they were just as active as the Jedi were and during the time period of Anakin Skywalker's life, manipulated the Force which caused the imbalance. They were the cancer, pushing the dark side over the light. By destroying them, the Force returns to balance as the cancer has been excised. Good and evil are once again in balance to each other, with the Jedi serving as healthy cells over the cancerous cells that are the Sith.
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  9. LordDallos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2016
    star 2
    Perhaps Lucasfilm agrees with me. The true balance of the force can only come when force-users are allowed to healthily experience emotion and engage in freedom of thought. Hence, why the Jedi must end. You tell em' Luke!
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  10. Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 4
    That might be what he means, but he might also be talking about the danger of Jedi turning to the dark side; that training a new generation is a high stakes gamble that he's no longer willing to allow (though Rey might be a necessary exception for some reason).

    ...or, he's just interpreting an ancient prophecy that seems to be coming true...
  11. FlyingspiginaPurplejarr Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2016
    I can't see why they couldn't have such in the olday order.Nothing prevents a jedi having having emotions utility they keep them in check, nothing having their own thoughts if it's not outright harmful to others.Hell, they tolerated Anakin and his issues for years.
    Last edited by FlyingspiginaPurplejarr, Apr 19, 2017
  12. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    Because he was kicking separatist butt for them.
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  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    Yeah, Ben Solo felt healthy emotion and freedom of thought. How'd that work out?

    We don't know what context Luke has for saying what he says. BTW, at what point do the Jedi repress freedom of thought? When do they prevent healthy emotions?
  14. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    Says who?


    Again, please don't treat your theories as facts.

    We don't know that Luke was training Jedi to serve the New Republic.

    We don't know that Ben being raised by his parents led to him falling to the dark side.

    Etc.


    Dooku was raised in the Old Jedi Order, not starting at 9 years old like Anakin either, and he still became a Sith.

    It's ultimately their choice (unless we find out Snoke literally brainwashed Ben into Kylo Ren, but that's unlikely). Dooku, Anakin, and Kylo Ren were all adults when they chose the dark side.
  15. FlyingspiginaPurplejarr Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Along with all those other Jedi like obi, ploo, shark ti, ayla, ashoka, quinlan, and many more.But the point was that the jedi weren't so dogmatic, and narrow-minded as many thinks in the fandom.Yes there are hardliners like Vrook from the kotor era but in general the Jedi were tolerant.

    Just because palpatine said something it doesn't mean he tells the truth or he is right.
    Last edited by FlyingspiginaPurplejarr, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:54 AM
  16. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    But he does mix lies with the truth.

    The tenor of the Jedi and the council's discourse on "the darkside" and everything that is said to lead to it is analogous with sin.

    Believers and their relationship with sins is always more complex than their doctrine promotes. Some are comfortable with sin as a part of daily life as, long as they atone, or confess, as they see fit. Whereas others might transgress, according to doctrine, but for whatever do not feel that their actions are a sin yet still feel guilty at not being a good enough believer or follower to bring themselves to admit sin and ask forgiveness. It can be a vicious circle.

    It does not mean that the Jedi are overly dogmatic because they have a code or a doctrine. It;s just that in that context, a follower may find themselves with a seemingly unapproachable dilemma that would not exist otherwise, and which the Jedi don't appear to be prepared to mediate due to the fact that certain actions that would ordinarily fulfill someone quite innocently are categorically prohibited.
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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    When Palpatine speaks of dogma, he's referring to the use of the dark side. He's trying to convince a Jedi with thirteen years of training to resist it, to turn around and embrace that which the Jedi deem forbidden. The problem is that there are those who don't understand what he's saying and believes it applies all together.

    Ah, we do based on what Han and Leia both said. He had too much fear, anger and hate inside of him. Enough that it scared them both and lead to the decision to send him to Luke.


    And Dooku never truly learned to master his emotions as the other Jedi did, which is why he fell. As we saw with Yoda's training with the Priestesses, when he was confronted by the darker version of himself, it is a constant battle to avoid the dark side. That simply passing the trails, or even being trained from birth won't stop the dark side's call. That they have to learn to continually face the darkness within themselves and not give into it. Training from birth helps to reduce the temptation.
  18. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    Now you're shifting your argument. Yes, he had a dark side, as does everyone. Nowhere is it said it's because Leia/Han raised him.

    Training from birth doesn't necessarily help reduce the temptation.
  19. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
    Is it possible to be dark side but not evil?
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    In Legends, (Shatterpoint novel) Mace thought of Kar Vastor that way - as both "dark side" and "not evil".
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kar_Vastor

    Kar committing "crimes against civilization" may have put paid to that though.
  21. Ghost Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I don't think so. I understand them to be synonyms.

    Remember, in the OT, it wasn't called the "the light side and the dark side." It was "the good side and the dark side." It meant dark as in morally-dark.

    Now, everyone has a dark side, a shadow, and that must be understood and accepted in order to control it and not feed it... you can't really cut if off, you can just hope it shrinks by not feeding it, keeping it tame. But some people think this means the dark side is ok. No, it's just that it's not that easy to get rid of it, and it can be even more dangerous if it's left to grow in the unconscious/subconscious. Others confuse dark side to mean natural darkness, the night to day, but that's not the dark side of the Force.

    As for Mace Windu... he was rather far from the mark of perfection himself, and let his attachment to the Republic/government/civilization cloud his judgment.
    Last edited by Ghost, Apr 20, 2017 at 2:10 PM
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  22. LordDallos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2016
    star 2
    Could be that as well.

    The Old Jedi order was intolerant of passionate emotion. They tolerated Anakin but they never trusted him, simply because he wanted to be free.
    If that's your definition of healthy, that's very strange (and wrong).
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  23. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    There is no such distinction between the 'natural darkness' and the 'dark side of the force' - they are one and the same.

    You are misunderstanding what balance means. It doesn't mean half-Jedi and half-Sith, it means having a healthy relationship between your shadow self and your good self. The Old Jedi did not have this healthy relationship, while Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon learnt this.
    Last edited by DarthPhilosopher, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:37 AM
  24. Bazinga'd Grand Admiral of WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6
    Easy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
  25. Martoto77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    On Dagobah, Yoda says that "Anger, fear aggression. The dark side of the force are they.,,Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will. As it did Obi Wan's apprentice."

    Now either Yoda is forgetting that he displayed plenty of aggression and some fear while in combat with Dooku and with Sidious - and we could excuse him from being privy to the anger and aggression shown by Obi Wan on Naboo - and his destiny is now dominated by the dark side, ultimately to be consumed by it.

    Or maybe ... what Yoda says about starting down the dark path of anger and aggression dominating your destiny and consuming you, like Vader, aint necessarily so.

    Because, last time I checked, Yoda had not been consumed by the darkside like Vader, and neither had Ben, despite displaying anger and aggression.