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Clone Wars Is Ahsoka a Mary Sue? Answers and Explanations

Discussion in 'Television' started by Dark Lord Tarkas, Jun 26, 2012.

Moderators: Seerow, Sith Star Slayer
  1. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    This thread is for discussing whether Ahsoka is a Mary Sue and how exactly you are using that term when you answer the question.

    Posts that say she either is or isn't a Mary Sue with no explanation will be reported as trolling.

    Here's the impetus for the thread:

    These bullet-points illustrate my point about Luke Skywalker pretty well, in my opinion.

    Appearing out of nowhere and being related to the main cast
    Luke Skywalker is the main character in the first film, so this is hard to relate OOU, but IU, he literally goes from a farm boy to the biggest hero of the Rebel Alliance in a couple hours, and in the next film becomes the son of the main villain. Appearing out of nowhere and being related to the main cast.

    Having random skills without explanation
    Luke Skywalker understands Bib Fortuna in RotJ, there's never an explanation how he knows the Twi'lek alien language. Having random skills without explanation.

    Getting new skills without explanation
    Luke Skywalker builds a new lightsaber off-screen between ESB and RotJ, a skill never explained nor even mentioned in the films. Getting new skills without explanation.

    Being over-powered
    After hearing about the Force for the first time a couple hours ago, Luke uses the Force to destroy the Death Star with a shot described as nearly impossible even for a computer. Being over-powered.

    Serving as wish-fulfillment for the author
    You just said you think this, you didn't give any example of something Ahsoka did to make you think it. Luke Skywalker's character design was originally based on Flash Gordon, GL's childhood hero, "Luke" is found in the name "Lucas," to be the main character in a romantic myth adventure. Serving as wish-fulfillment for the author.


    I don't personally have an answer. I don't consider Mary Sue a term in my real vocabulary, and what I've read online suggests there are many different ways to use the term. Unfortunately, I've found that sometimes this graphic is true:

    [IMG]
    bananarama likes this.
  2. Coric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    You do know what this thread will turn into right?
  3. anakinfansince1983 Shelf of Shame "Winner"

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2012
    I'll try to tackle this more tomorrow, but FWIW, Luke was a bit Gary Stu-ish for me in ANH. At least he was a little too perfect. I liked Han better.
    Zeta1127 and Dark Lord Tarkas like this.
  4. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Non-substantive posts will be Reported to mods as trolling, the warning is in the first post. I see no reason why this thread can't host a constructive discussion as long as people post full thoughts that are on-topic.
  5. Coric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    People who truly feel Ahsoka is a Mary-Sue are going to post here. But you already knew that hopefully.
  6. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Of course. Like I said, I have no strong feeling either way since the term Mary Sue has no single concrete definition. I'm interested in whether anyone can conjure a definition that makes Ahsoka a Mary Sue without making Luke Skywalker as bad or a worse one. We don't all have to agree to have a constructive discussion, it's actually better if we don't.
  7. ESg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Luke is hardly a Gary Stu for several reasons
    1) He's always doubting himself
    2) He's impatient per Yoda
    3) He lost to Vader on his Duel on Bespin
    4) He found out Vader the Big bad of the series was his father

    Hating Troll you should also read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor if you want a excellent take on Luke
    ESg,
  8. anakinfansince1983 Shelf of Shame "Winner"

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2012
    Hence why I specified "in ANH."
  9. Coric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Ahsoka came back from the dead. e_e
  10. ESg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Feh I was just making my own comments on the thread, no one in general
    ESg,
    DanGrievous likes this.
  11. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    I think that people are far too concerned with these "Sue" terms. Most of the characters will have moments of win and moments of fail, especially important ones like Ahsoka & Luke.

    Oh, and Luke got his butt kicked by a Tusken Raider in ANH.
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    1.) Ahsoka doubts herself greatly in Storm Over Ryloth
    2.) Ahsoka is impatient also, I don't think anyone would argue that point, though I'm not sure how that makes someone not a Mary Sue
    3.) Ahsoka lost to General Grievous in Duel of the Droids
    4.) Ahsoka's master is going to become Darth Vader, the main villain of the whole saga, and she sees him use the dark side
  13. ESg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2012
    It shows the character isn't perfect, and You should read Shadows of Mindor. It utterly kills the idea that he's a Gary Stu. Corran Horn fits it to the letter T however. Luke was also reckless, and has also forgone training others because he feared making the next Darth Vader
    She had a Jedi master lie for her disobeying direct orders
    Not the same as being related to the guy who killed your childhood friend and countless other men women and children
    ESg,
    Inblackestnight likes this.
  14. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Corran Horn is in the poster child.
    Inblackestnight and ESg like this.
  15. AkashKedavra_93 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Appearing out of nowhere and being related to the main cast
    That can be said for multiple characters besides Ahsoka, such as Luke or even Han Solo. He's a random pirate for hire and then he saves Luke's life and that of the Rebellion at the end of Episode IV.

    Having random skills without explanation
    The Wookiee language that was used as the example - she cold have easily learned that in the temple. I really don't see that as any gargantuan error.

    Getting new skills without explanation
    Kyp Durron, where did he get the skill to drag the Sun Crusher out of the heart of Yavin?

    Being over-powered
    Mace Windu on Dantooine.

    Serving as wish-fulfillment for the author
    No concrete example provided in terms of Ahsoka.
  16. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Kyp was possessed by Exar Kun.
  17. ESg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2012
    He's a Jedi Master. And No one gives a Hutts droppings about Kyp, he's a KJA creation ergo auto terrible as is Daala
    Luke was the Main character while Han was the dude they hired to get him and Ben off planet but he eventually begins to care about the main cast enough to put his mercenary ways aside and help at the last minute
    ESg,
    Charlie likes this.
  18. Charlie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2012
    A thread was started because of me!? I'm honored. :)

    This point is primarily concerned with an on out-of-universe point of view. It mostly deals with a new character that is introduced to the story that suddenly becomes important because of her relationship to the already established characters in previous works. Therefore, its very hard for me to call Luke a mary-sue considering he was in the first work of the franchise as the main character.

    Star Wars is the journey of Luke Skywalker and how he goes from a farm boy to a hero of the rebellion. Yes, he starts from a very average position to being being a hero at the end, this is called an arc. Pretty much every action/adventure/fantasy movie has this happen.

    Luke was main character; him being related to Vader is not mary-suish since he has been more important to the story than Vader up to this point.

    Appearing out of nowhere? :confused: He is the main character.
    The scene doesn't require Luke to understand Bib Fortuna's language.

    Not everything needs to be shown in between the films, especially for a minor skill like lightsaber building. Most of the focus of ESB and RotJ were on Luke's personal development, something as minor as how he learns to build a lightsaber does not necessitate an exact explanation. Not to mention he has been getting assistance from Ben's ghost so its not that much of a stretch to assume he taught him how.

    Learning to use two lightsabers instead of just one, when its considered a very rare skill (no one uses two lightsabers in the films)not Mace, nor Yoda, nor Sidious not even Ahsoka's master Anakin) leads to a huge mystery of how she knows this.

    The most important difference between these two is that in Luke's case it serves a purpose to the story, Luke making his own lightsaber symbolized that he had become a true Jedi Knight, as making a lightsaber served as a sort of 'rite of passage'. In Ahsoka's case it seems her second lightsaber was added to just to make her seem more awesome and serves nothing for the story.
    You are very much oversimplifying the matter. Over-powered mostly refers to combat power. Luke Skywalker at this point was a great pilot, but as a fighter he was nothing more special than an average human. He was even easily defeated by Vader an entire film later after his Jedi training.

    Also the shot didn't require power, but instead Luke's connection with the force -aplified by his strong force affinity ("The force is strong with this one")- is what made the shot possible.

    Furthermore the film does a good job presenting the act as not a feat of Luke, but instead as a feat made possible by power of the force, which was motif throughout the movie. Remember Darth Vader's words: "The power to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force"

    Luke just had to believe in the force, if anything it was more faith than power.

    I am not really knowledgeable on the show and the creators intentions so someone who knows more about this would be better qualified to answer.
    These question could be considered. How does Filoni see Ahsoka?
    Is he the one giving her more powers?
    Is he the one who pushes for more screen-time for her?

    These don't necessarily mean that Luke serves as a wish fulfillment character for Lucas.

    If you don't then why even star this thread? If you don't even believe Mary Sue is a real thing then I question how far I can get presenting my viewpoints to you.

    As far as the graphic, that's an example of what you told people not to post.
  19. Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    You said Ahsoka is a Mary Sue because of X, Y, and Z, and I showed how those statements could be made about Luke as well. You can give reasons for why it was okay for Luke but not Ahsoka in your opinion, but those characters still have those similarities, if we're allowing explanations then that means we'd have to allow reasons that excuse Ahsoka as well.

    One of my main reasons for bringing this up is to see how the complaints made about Ahsoka would work if applied equally to the rest of Star Wars. Since I know people use the term differently, I'm leaving it up to people who want to say whether Ahsoka is or isn't a Mary Sue to say how they're using that term.

    And about the graphic, I gave it to show the way I've seen the term used, that was at the end of a longer post with other stuff. What I asked people not to do is post only a simple statement like that with no explanation.
  20. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2012
    I think your underestimating the power of Kyp Durron. Seriously he has a lot of fans, a whole EUC fanclub on the main forum.
    Chilla likes this.
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